Forum Post: URGENT! Get this out to ALL Occupiers in the Nation IMMEDIATELY!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 1:26 p.m. EST by Reigne
(175)
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Get this message to ALL Occupiers throughout the Nation Immediately! Print this out and pass it around! Text it everywhere! Post this on all social networks, websites, etc! Do NOT Delay!
YOU HAVE RIGHTS - YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEM! I am NOT advocating Violence - I am advocating Self-Defense!
When the cops are macing, hitting, pushing, pulling, and arresting someone when they haven't committed a crime: "An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrain of his Liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery." State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260
When YOU witness this happening to someone else: "One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance." Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48, S.E. 910
"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306
These cops are in VIOLATION of the Law and of their Oath! Tell them "You are violating the Law. You are violating your Oath! YOU CAN STOP THEM! You CAN Hold them ACCOUNTABLE! YOU Pay their salary - they are there to Protect and Serve YOU!
OFFER PEACE FIRST - DEFEND YOURSELF ALWAYS!
The agent provacateurs are the first to advocate violence. It turns mainstream against your movement and they know it.
The ONLY ones I've witnessed advocating violence are the NYPD/corrupt cops throughout the Nation.
And the undercover cops planted through out the crowd. Violence is exactly what the NYPD/corrupt cops want and no matter what they do or start they will win almost every time. The system is set up that way. It is the rare instance that john Q citizen wins against a cop or in the court of public opinion if he/or she is seen as fighting even if it's fighting back. I know this is more extreme than we are talking about but as Judi Bari said "The first lesson in activism is that the person that offers to get the dynamite is always the FBI agent"
Well, then you advise people to consent to the violations & waive their rights.
And I will defend your right to do so, even tho I disagree. All-in-all, it comes down to Personal Responsibility for oneself.
Not advisable. If you escalate violence against the police, they will escalate until they dominate the situation, and dominate YOU.
If you want social change, violence will completely destroy your effort. Utterly.
Don't listen to provocateurs like this.
Idiot? Nice, and really mature.
Like I said, I'm not advocating violence - I'm advocating your Right to Defend yourself/your property! What's hard to understand about that?
OK, I apologize, I changed it to Not advisable.
You DID advocate violence. Go back and re-read it.
If you were a cop, and ideologically agreed with why people are out there, and read that, what would you think?
Again; if you escalate violence against the police, they will escalate until they dominate the situation, and dominate YOU. Otherwise they might die. Get it? You run the risk of getting someone shot with this kind of stuff. The blood will be on your hands.
The blood spilled is on the cops hands - they are assaulting, kidnapping (unlawful arrest) peaceful people. Those peaceful people have the Right to defend themselves.
Advocating self-defense is not advocating violence. Women are taught self-defense classes all the time. Children go to Karate class all the time. BOTH are specifically geared toward Self-Defense. The gun in my possession is a tool I choose to assist my ability in defending myself/mine.
WHY do you not understand the difference between the two? Should the kid who is bullied "just take it?"
I DO understand the difference. As fully as you do. But in a crowd control situation, the risk is elevated.
Again; if you escalate violence against the police, they will escalate until they dominate the situation, and dominate YOU. Otherwise they might die. Get it? You run the risk of getting someone shot with this kind of stuff. The blood will be on your hands.
Your blood won't be on my hands - it will be on the cops hands. How many more times shall peaceful people be violated? Clearly doing nothing hasn't changed a darn thing.
I respect your views and I agree with you. You just have to understand that this movement doesn't have the emotional ability to take such a risk. They are the MLK faction of this movement and people like ourselves are the Malcolm X faction. Both elements are necessary but in most cases, one cannot get along with another.
But like you, I am dismayed that people would allow senseless beatings to happen, especially while they record with their little cameras like that's going to have an impact. This isn't the early 90's; people are desensitized to actions of police brutality now. They don't care if a cop bashes someone in the head without merit. We have to care and be willing to do something about it.
LOL I've never been placed into an MalcolmX faction before LOL
Yes, we commit crimes against each other when we idly sit by and allow such atrocities to occur.
Kicking a smoke bomb back in the direction of the police who threw it is self-defense. There (sadly) will always be casualties that occur, and it's more often than not casualties of the people acting peacefully.
Check this out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3R1BQrYCw
We are not the ONLY ones who Stand for our Rights and demand Justice be done.
And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_V6zMwaL04&feature=related
Stand for your Rights and exercise and enjoy your rights!
Violence is not useful. Don't use violence against police officers.
It's all old case law, and it's probably been overturned long since. Arguing this case law in court won't stop you from being convicted of numerous felonies and sent to jail for a couple of years - or more.
Most states have "excessive force" statutes, but you have to get the District Attorney to prosecute these cases. Such prosecutions are rare, even in the cases where police kill unarmed people, like Oscar Grant, the penalties are minor. The soldiers who did the killing at Kent State were never prosecuted.
The law and the state are not on your side, so don't even consider getting relief from the court system, it won't happen. And the media aren't, either.
You really have to think about what you are doing when you protest and hold a demonstration. You're begging the State to take your side and to change its position on whatever issue you're complaining about; you're trying to make a case that they should change, by carrying signs and making speeches. Non-violent civil disobedience means that you are willing to be beaten up, perhaps killed, perhaps arrested, in order that the people in charge of the State will have pangs of conscience and a change of heart, which will lead them to change their policy. This may or may not be a realistic expectation. It'll cost you dearly, in terms of pain, injury, financial loss, and even death of you or your loved ones. With the current situation, it probably won't work, because the State would have to voluntarily give up power and there's no indication that that will happen.
Having said that, there are non-violent means of getting things done which involve direct action, such as a general strike, which can be very effective. There are other things which can be done as well which are legal but make life a real pain in the ass for the System - these involve creative thinking and passive aggression (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive%E2%80%93aggressive_behavior and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_games and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicious_compliance)
Yes, and in Tucson, we have lawyers working with us.
Peace, Tex Shelters
Some believe that the government has plants within the occupy protestor crowds that are provoking violence. Be careful out there. Things are not as simple as they look on the surface. They will be trying to discredit the movement and create an environment where they can use greater force and restrictions to control you and scare others away from their right to peacefully protest.
You fight the cops, not only do YOU lose...we all lose.
Read a book, guys:
MLK was nonviolent and he won in the civil rights era....his successors the black panthers and black power urban guerillas were violent and achieved nothing but a generation of backlash and a lot of jail sentences and deaths.
The student anti-war movement was nonviolent and won, turning a whole country against the Vietnam war....its successor, the Weathermen, was violent and its acts and revolutionary rhetoric achieved nothing except backlash, waste and futility.
Troll Alert
Hey folks, speaking as a civil rights lawyer who was tear-gassed and sound grenaded in Oakland on Tuesday, I support the spirit of this comment but would advise relying on any of those legal precedents. If you fight with cops, be prepared for the state (i.e., judges, prosecutors, etc.) to come down on you, even if you are righteous in defending another. Now, whether or not a particular struggle is worth doing time, leave that for each of us to decide. In solidarity, Michael Siegel
A movement which refuses to defend itself is a movement which is apologetic for its own existence.
"Gee officer, I'm really sorry my face hit your baton, I hope I didn't break it."
It's worth reading How Nonviolence Protects the State, which is available both in book form and for free across the Internet. Here's a review: http://www.crimethinc.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-nonviolence-protects-the-state-by-peter-gelderloos/
Certainly some great points have been made here for both sides. However, I believe that this occupation requires strategic thinking. Let me make it clear that I believe in self defense, but if the police attack protestors and the protestors retaliate, even in self defense, then the police will escalate their use of force. First pepper spray and batons, then riot gear and tear gas, then water cannons and rubber bullets, and eventually it may even be live ammunition. We can fight back without physical force! Every time a video of some "thug" cop committing some form of "thuggery" (pepper spraying, entrapment, excessive force, batons, etc.) gets out, more people see how bad their behavior is and rally behind us. There are also other forms of passive resistance that can be very effective (linking arms and forming human barriers, going limp when being handled, pulling those being arrested into the crowd and away from police). Protestors can protect each other, there is strength in numbers. Let them throw the punches and use violence, and we will show the world.
Exactly!
What part of "Offer Peace First - Defend Yourself Always" is confusing for some of you?
This applies to extreme cases only. The cops have a right to defend themselves too. They made that line so blurry. Its best not to put a fight up. Doing that will only give us bad press.
Putting up a fight is not the same as defending yourself. The cops do NOT have the same rights - when they are in uniform, they are a public servant with LIMITED powers/authority.
They do NOT have the right to unlawfully arrest anyone - EVER! They do NOT have the right to mace people who are standing on a public sidewalk. They do NOT have the right to club someone who is sitting submissively on the ground. They do NOT have the right to yank a passerby over a fence. They do NOT have the right to slam someone to the ground.
Have you WATCHED any of the Violations of Law/Oath the cops have committed upon peaceful people?
This may be right in theory or on paper but never works in real life
if you want to succeed you will be non-violent like MLK and Gandhi. violence leads to backlash and hatred. your revolution becomes a movement that ends.
i don't like this.
This post makes a lot of sense. And the LEGAL Cases stated to support these comments are well-grounded in precedence. I MUST add something here for follow-up. There are GOOD cops... and there are BAD cops. Everyone knows this. You can even watch the OWS Movement videos and see which officers are 'honorable' and which cops are just 'thugs'. So, what is my point? If you get pounded in the face by one of the "thug" cops... you have every Right to protect and defend yourself. AND, those around you have every Right to assist you. The Revolutionary War of 1776 was NOT won by letting a handful of British soldiers beat the shit out of us in the middle of the streets!
Not pleasant, but it may be necessary to let people realize that we will protect our rights.
What the heck is wrong with some Occupiers? People are being assaulted and they don't think it's okay to defend oneself or come to the aid of another?
How do you get through to folks who believe self-defense is violence?
I am saying it is not a pleasant thought that we have to resort to self defense even to protect ourselves. But I do believe it is important that we do protect ourselves, but this could easily escalate into a full blown riot... and imagine how the media would paint that.
I understood your statement, it's some others statements I was referring to. I don't like the thought of having to defend myself/mine, but the thought of me/mine being assaulted, raped, molested, kidnapped, unlawfully arrested I like a lot less. Between the two, I will always choose self-defense!
Before we know it, we are probably going to find extra big muscle and keep them around just in case of random crap like that :P
Self-defense is NOT Violence. You have the RIGHT to defend yourself ... Do you not know the difference between inflicting assault/violence upon another and defending yourself?
These are COURT decisions that BACK UP your RIGHT.
You test it out first and let us know how it goes for ya.
I second that
The officer just needs to have a reason to arrest you it can be very difficult to prove you are being falsely arrested. It's easier to prove in court your innocence then at the end of a nightstick or.38.